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  • Negro leagues get recognition from MLB.

    Now they are major league.

    MLB designates Negro Leagues as 'Major League' (msn.com)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dumpjerry View Post
    This is meaningless.

    It doesn't adjust Hank Aaron's career home run total to 786, for example. The Negro Leagues Baseball Musuem (e-museum) credits Aaron with 31 home runs with the Indianapolis Clowns.of the Negro American League. Add that to the 755 regular season home runs Aaron hit in the American and National leagues, and you bump him ahead of Barry Bonds.

    The problem is that record-keeping was casual in the Negro Leagues. There may have been reason to document Aaron's offensive stats in Indianapolis, but I have not been able to find any records for Charley Pride, recently deceased country music star, who said he pitched for the Birmingham Black Barons in 1955. No one knows how many home runs Josh Gibson actually hit. Different sources attribute different statistics to him. His Hall of Fame plaque states he hit "almost 800 home runs," which would put him ahead of Aaron if the Negro Leagues were actually recognized a major leagues. And, of course, "almost 800" isn't actually a number. In 1970, William Peterson wrote a history of the Negro Leagues, Only the Ball Was White. He noted the limitations, not just of the accuracy of the records, but of identifying everyone who played in the Negro Leagues.

    The week after Charley Pride died, he can be considered a former major leaguer? This announcement isn't simply meaningless. It is insulting.

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    • #3
      I like it. I think it’s the least they can do. They can’t go back and re-do the past, but they can take what’s out there and merge it together to give these players some form of long-overdue recognition.

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      • #4
        Is baseball going to officially drop Willie Mays lifetime batting average from .302 to .301 because according to some records he hit .262 with the Birmingham Black Barons in 1948 at 17 -- before he was signed by the New York Giants and sent to the minors?

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        • #5
          Hopefully this helps Minnie Minoso get to the Hall of Fame

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post
            Hopefully this helps Minnie Minoso get to the Hall of Fame
            I don't see how it could. Legend is that Minoso was a Negro League star. The reality is that he was one of the young emerging stars at the time of integration. He played three seasons, was part of the all-star games in 1947 and 1948. Even Seamheads, which has him hitting .227 in 36 games in 1946, can only document 120 Negro Leagues games before Cleveland signed him at age 22. That includes the Negro National League with the New York Cuban Giants and the all-star games. Even then, Cleveland sent him to A ball. to finish the 1948 season, He walked as a pinch-hitter in Cleveland's 1949 opener but played in only eight more games in 1949 before they sent him down to AAA for two season.

            The legend is that Minoso was robbed of productive major league seasons because of his race. That may be true. But it seems apparent that his years in the Negro National League were not years that he could have been starring in the American or National Leagues. the Negro National League was more of a minor league in his career than a major league. That isn't the case with Satchel Paige, but it certainly is with Jackie Robinson, a former college football star who played 26 (Seamheads-)documented games with the Kansas City Monarchs before the Dodgers signed him and sent him to Montreal for a full season at second base in 1946 so he could open the 1947 season at first base in Brooklyn.

            Whether or not it's true that the Josh Gibson legend of 800 home runs had more to do with Babe Ruth's 714 total than any realistic estimate of Gibson's actual home runs, Seamhead can only document 286 Gibson home runs from the Negro Leagues. I don't doubt there were more, but that's the number we're going with. So his Hall of Fame plaque says "almost 800" while baseball officially recognizes he hit 286 in 16 seasons, putting him, on the all-time MLB home run list, one behind Bobby Bonilla for his 16 seasons.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TDog View Post

              I don't see how it could. Legend is that Minoso was a Negro League star. The reality is that he was one of the young emerging stars at the time of integration. He played three seasons, was part of the all-star games in 1947 and 1948. Even Seamheads, which has him hitting .227 in 36 games in 1946, can only document 120 Negro Leagues games before Cleveland signed him at age 22. That includes the Negro National League with the New York Cuban Giants and the all-star games. Even then, Cleveland sent him to A ball. to finish the 1948 season, He walked as a pinch-hitter in Cleveland's 1949 opener but played in only eight more games in 1949 before they sent him down to AAA for two season.

              The legend is that Minoso was robbed of productive major league seasons because of his race. That may be true. But it seems apparent that his years in the Negro National League were not years that he could have been starring in the American or National Leagues. the Negro National League was more of a minor league in his career than a major league. That isn't the case with Satchel Paige, but it certainly is with Jackie Robinson, a former college football star who played 26 (Seamheads-)documented games with the Kansas City Monarchs before the Dodgers signed him and sent him to Montreal for a full season at second base in 1946 so he could open the 1947 season at first base in Brooklyn.

              Whether or not it's true that the Josh Gibson legend of 800 home runs had more to do with Babe Ruth's 714 total than any realistic estimate of Gibson's actual home runs, Seamhead can only document 286 Gibson home runs from the Negro Leagues. I don't doubt there were more, but that's the number we're going with. So his Hall of Fame plaque says "almost 800" while baseball officially recognizes he hit 286 in 16 seasons, putting him, on the all-time MLB home run list, one behind Bobby Bonilla for his 16 seasons.
              Interesting post but I read where if you include Minnie's Negro League stats it puts him over 2,000 hits and a .300 average that is what I was referring to.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

                Interesting post but I read where if you include Minnie's Negro League stats it puts him over 2,000 hits and a .300 average that is what I was referring to.
                Seamheads would put him over 2,100 hits. It doesn't put him at 200 home runs, which I assumed it would. Before Veeck brought him back in the 1970s, Minoso had a career average of .299 with 186 home runs. He lost a point due to his curtain calls, encores, whatever you want to call them. Coming up to hit for the Sox in 1976 wasn't as outlandish as it might have seemed to some. He have been playing in the Mexican leagues from his White Sox release in 1964 to 1972.

                The problem with Minoso's Negro National League record, though, is that he wasn't being kept out of Cleveland because of his race. He was kept out of their organization before he matured as a major leaguer. He played a documented 120 games as a Negro National Leaguer, Cleveland had him play more than twice that in the minors, mostly in the Pacific Coast League, before he played his 10th game in the America League. The Negro Leagues weren't the equivalent of major league baseball in Minoso's case. There were certainly Negro League players would have been among the top players in the American and National Leagues. That doesn't mean the statistics of Negro League players (as reconstructed with data often missing) should be recognized as major league records.

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                • #9
                  As we all know, baseball, more than any other sport seems to treasure statistics. It's one of the things that got me hooked when I was a kid in the 1960's That said, there are somethings that are simply more important than preserving the sanctity of statistics. Recognizing the Negro League as a Major League is one of them. If it means Willie Mays loses a point on his career average, so be it. I'd be surprised if Willie isn't okay with it.
                  Last edited by Chez; 12-24-2020, 09:45 AM.

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                  • #10
                    I found an article today on a former Negro League player from Detroit, Ron Teasley.
                    93-year-old Ron Teasley says MLB's decision to include the Negro Leagues in its official record was a "wonderful gesture."

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