Tigers: White Sox did us a huge favor

[vegandork]

Less about TLR and more about not signing Hinch. Subscription required. Hinch was going to come here if asked. Not signing him could have a lasting consequence for us over the next few decades. What a missed opportunity.

https://theathletic.com/2169371/2020...shared_article

[Krs1]

Waaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh

[TDog]

Less about TLR and more about not signing Hinch. Subscription required. Hinch was going to come here if asked. Not signing him could have a lasting consequence for us over the next few decades. What a missed opportunity.

https://theathletic.com/2169371/2020...shared_article

Why would the White Sox want to ask Hinch to be their manager? Regardless of who the White Sox hired, I simply can't imagine Hinch being in the discussion. I'm not sure why the Tigers would want him as their manager.

[vegandork]

Why would the White Sox want to ask Hinch to be their manager? Regardless of who the White Sox hired, I simply can't imagine Hinch being in the discussion. I'm not sure why the Tigers would want him as their manager.

You can't say he's a cheater but then be okay with TLR as manager. He literally admitted to doing the same thing with the cameras and lights at old comiskey.

Hinch is probably the best manager in the game. However TLR works out, it's still a massive missed opportunity because TLR will only be here a few years. We'll be playing against Hinch forever.

[Frater Perdurabo]

Hinch is probably the best manager in the game.

I’m not sure this is a defensible claim. He benefitted from having a club built with multiple stars by an organization that innovated and evolved in every aspect, and also used technology to steal signs to the point that they knew what pitches were coming.

Let’s see how he does with Detroit before we anoint him as “the best manager in the game.”

I’ll grant that he may have been the best of the experienced managers available on the current offseason’s market, but even that’s debatable with Bochy on the market as well.

[vegandork]

I’m not sure this is a defensible claim. He benefitted from having a club built with multiple stars by an organization that innovated and evolved in every aspect, and also used technology to steal signs to the point that they knew what pitches were coming.

Let’s see how he does with Detroit before we anoint him as “the best manager in the game.”

I’ll grant that he may have been the best of the experienced managers available on the current offseason’s market, but even that’s debatable with Bochy on the market as well.

The only thing Bochy has done that Hinch hasn't is have a losing season. Yes, the Astros were talented. But winning 100 games in a season is really hard to do and he's done it three straight years.

[Krs1]

You can't say he's a cheater but then be okay with TLR as manager. He literally admitted to doing the same thing with the cameras and lights at old comiskey.

When?

[FourGoldGloves]

If I understand correctly what the Sox intend (transitioning to McEwing in 2022) I applaud them for it. If not, I am still happy not to have Hinch. I like him less after watching him talk after the Tigers' announcement. Let's see what he does with the Tigers.

[Dumpjerry]

Less about TLR and more about not signing Hinch. Subscription required. Hinch was going to come here if asked. Not signing him could have a lasting consequence for us over the next few decades. What a missed opportunity.

https://theathletic.com/2169371/2020...shared_article

"Decades?" How so? When has a Manager caused decades of damage to another team in the league?

Curious, how many decades? Asking for a friend.

[LITTLE NELL]

When?

What I remember was the Sox for years having a guy in the scoreboard stealing signs from the catcher and turning on or off certain lights on the board depending on what kind of pitch was coming. The Sox weren't the only ones doing that, pretty sure the Cubs somehow did even though they didn't have lights on the old board. You can bet on it in those days that most teams that had a board in centerfielder were stealing signs from the catcher. Of course for many years when Nellie Fox played for the Sox, the lines near home plate were slanted a little towards the field to help Nellie keeping his bunts from going foul. In the mid 60s the Sox had some great sinker ball pitchers like Tommy John and Joe Horlen so groundskeeper Gene Bossard watered down the area in front of home plate almost like a swamp to help the pitchers on ground balls not getting through the infield. In 1967 the Sox kept the baseballs in a freezer to help out the pitchers, as it turned out it was probably a bad move as the Sox in 67 with any kind of hitting would have won the pennant.

[Mohoney]

What I remember was the Sox for years having a guy in the scoreboard stealing signs from the catcher and turning on or off certain lights on the board depending on what kind of pitch was coming. The Sox weren't the only ones doing that, pretty sure the Cubs somehow did even though they didn't have lights on the old board. You can bet on it in those days that most teams that had a board in centerfielder were stealing signs from the catcher. Of course for many years when Nellie Fox played for the Sox that right down the lines near home plate were slanted a little towards the field to help Nellie with keeping his blunts from going foul. In the mid 60s the Sox had some great sinker ball pitchers like Tommy John and Joe Horlen so groundskeeper Gene Bossard watered down the area around home plate almost like a swamp to help the pitchers on ground balls not getting through the infield. In 1967 the Sox kept the baseballs in a freezer to help out the pitchers, as it turned out it was probably a bad move as the Sox in 67 with any kind of hitting would have won the pennant.

Yikes.

At least angling the grass, soaking the field, and freezing the baseballs affect both teams equally. The “eye in the sky” sending messages with scoreboard lights is just plain wrong. Like you said, though, the Sox most likely were not alone in doing this.

[Dumpjerry]

When?

Sign stealing is as old as the game itself.

[LITTLE NELL]

Yikes.

At least angling the grass, soaking the field, and freezing the baseballs affect both teams equally. The “eye in the sky” sending messages with scoreboard lights is just plain wrong. Like you said, though, the Sox most likely were not alone in doing this.

....and we still had spitballers and vaseline users like Lew Burdette, Gaylord Perry and Phil Niekro decades after spitballs were banned. Whitey Ford admitted to cheating when he would scruff up the balls with his belt buckle.

[LITTLE NELL]

Sign stealing is as old as the game itself.

You're right but in the beginning it was done in the dugout by the coaches or a player who was on second base flashing signs to the batter and if you could do it, more power to you, it was like an art. As Mahoney stated using a scoreboard operator to flash signs was just wrong.

[TDog]

You can't say he's a cheater but then be okay with TLR as manager. He literally admitted to doing the same thing with the cameras and lights at old comiskey.

Hinch is probably the best manager in the game. However TLR works out, it's still a massive missed opportunity because TLR will only be here a few years. We'll be playing against Hinch forever.

I don't think you can make the argument that Hinch is a good manager. I outlined the argument drawing the distinction between Hinch and La Russa , how I can be comfortable in labeling only Hinch of the two as a cheater, in a thread that has been closed. If you're interested in the argument, I would refer you to that.

Hinch did have a losing record with the Diamondbacks. He managed parts of two season in Arizona and during his stay was probably the least popular manager in the team's history. He struggled in his first year, taking over from Bob Melvin's 12-17 start. The next year, it was supposed to be his team, but he lost it and was fired on July 1, along with the GM who hired him. The local media and people I know said the problem was that his handling of the bullpen made a bullpen that wasn't very good even worse, and that there were simply too many strikeouts in his lineup. The strikeouts and bad bullpen continued under Kirk Gibson, but I don't know how much that comes to Hinch's defense.

You could say the Diamondbacks were a bad team and didn't have the personnel to win. There is something to the argument that managers can't be judged on their win totals because all teams aren't created equal. Robin Ventura had a better record in his first year with the White Sox than Ozzie Guillen had in his last, and in Ventura's rookie managerial year that followed. In fact, Ventura was 16 games better than Guillen was with the Marlins during Guillen's only season in Florida. But you read more defense of Guillen in these forums than you do of Ventura, although old White Sox managers, even those that won the World Series (Guillen, Pants Rowland and Fielder Jones -- it's exclusive company), seldom inspire positive comments.

Bruce Bochy won four division titles in a dozen years with the Padres, but his teams were overmatched in the postseason. Sometimes those division-title teams seemed overmatched in the regular season. In San Diego, his teams had their ups and downs, along with changing personnel. When the Padres let go after winning the division, the Giants picked him up in the late Barry Bonds years when the Giants simply weren't very good. They got better under him each year and came from behind to win the NL West and the World Series in 2010. If you watched him manage, you would have seen how well he handled his bullpen, and each championship season essentially had a different bullpen. The Giants seemed to win whenever they had an opening to win. Although Bochy won three titles in five years, each title was closed out by a different closer, the last in Game 7, with his top starter, who had pitched a complete-game shutout in Game 5, protecting a one-run lead for five innings. You really had to watch those teams to understand those championship runs. Bochy had such a great feel for the game. There were seasons when he didn't have a team that could win, which Hinch didn't have to worry about when he took over the Astros for five years, when they were loaded with talent but still found need to systematically cheat in blatant violation of MLB rules. It wasn't just that Bochy pulled strings that worked that showed he knew what he was doing. Once, Don Mattingly went to the mound to talk to his reliever who was protecting a late Dodger lead. Bochy went to the umpires to demand they change pitchers because Mattingly had stepped onto the grass before finishing his conference. Umpires conferred, a pitching change was ordered and the Giants took the lead against the new reliever who wasn't warmed up.

Seriously, Hinch won games with the Astros, and MLB didn't take any titles away, but he never showed me anything as a manager. Meanwhile, the cheating that led to his suspension looms over games he won. While trying to get an edge, he crossed the line. A quality manager, a strong manager is not ethically challenged enough to cross that line.