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  • Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post
    For those who subscribe to the Sun-Times the White Sox broadcasters give their thoughts on the season. very interesting read....among the things mentioned the idea that little things mean a lot and win games:

    https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports-...ey-saw-in-2021
    Would have loved to hear DJ's thoughts too. I've grown to appreciate his analysis over the years as he is very willing to tell it like it is in live time.

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    • Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post
      For those who subscribe to the Sun-Times the White Sox broadcasters give their thoughts on the season. very interesting read....among the things mentioned the idea that little things mean a lot and win games:

      https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports-...ey-saw-in-2021
      Steve Stone October 2021: "The idea that Jerry won't spend is a bunch of crap. It's ridiculous" "Jerry will spend more money. Jerry really wants to win. He gets this bad rap, and it’s infuriating to me."

      Fast forward to Steve Stone about 6 weeks from now: Sox fans need to give themselves a serious reality check if they are dreaming of players like Semien, Castellanos, or a mid-rotation starting pitcher coming here via free agency. With the money tied up in Keuchel and Kimbrel and core players hitting their arbitration years, those type of deals simply aren't happening and it's frustrating when fans don't understand this. Jerry has spent the money.
      Last edited by Hitmen77; 10-23-2021, 05:14 PM.
      White Sox Division Titles: 1983, 1993, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2021

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      • I don't know exactly how this happens but the Sox need Eloy, Vaughn, Sheets on the field playing the majority of time. They need to playing experience to develop. And I don't like situations where a right-handed bat only plays against LHP or vice versa. How can you become a complete player if you don't face all situations?

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        • Maybe they need to spend time in the minors, like they used to, to get experience and learn how to play the game.

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          • Originally posted by Harwar View Post
            Maybe they need to spend time in the minors, like they used to, to get experience and learn how to play the game.
            Not a bad idea for Sheets and/or Vaughn to ensure they play and develop vs spending time on the bench. But then the Sox need to add significant players at 2B and/or RF. They need to add some offense and defense. No more cheaping-out with has-beens RFers.
            Of course, the biggest need is pitching. We have some good starters and bullpen but you can never have enough.

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            • Originally posted by longtimefan View Post

              Not a bad idea for Sheets and/or Vaughn to ensure they play and develop vs spending time on the bench. But then the Sox need to add significant players at 2B and/or RF. They need to add some offense and defense. No more cheaping-out with has-beens RFers.
              Of course, the biggest need is pitching. We have some good starters and bullpen but you can never have enough.
              Sheets and Vaughn do not need to spend time in the minors. They just need consistent PT. The way to do that is to give Vaughn RF.
              Riding Shotgun on the Sox Bandwagon since before there was an Internet...



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              • Originally posted by Hitmen77 View Post

                [
                Fast forward to Steve Stone about 6 weeks from now: Sox fans need to give themselves a serious reality check if they are dreaming of players like Semien, Castellanos, or a mid-rotation starting pitcher coming here via free agency. With the money tied up in Keuchel andKimbrel and core players hitting their arbitration years, those type of deals simply aren't happening and it's frustrating when fans don't understand this. Jerry has spent the money.
                Well if that's the situation, why did they pick up Kimbrel's option? Hahn's idea that he can trade him for value is more of his wish-casting stuff. It was a terrible trade, and the only possible mitigation at this point is if Kimbrel pitches well this year. Paying starter money to an iffy reliever doesn't seem like the best use of scarce resources.
                Unless Keuchel has a resurgence, they are just going to have to release him; of maybe the pen - if he can get pinpoint control for an inning, he could be effective; that's kind of what the Giants do.
                Last edited by Tragg; 10-24-2021, 12:22 PM.

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                • Originally posted by Hitmen77 View Post

                  Fast forward to Steve Stone about 6 weeks from now: Sox fans need to give themselves a serious reality check if they are dreaming of players like Semien, Castellanos, or a mid-rotation starting pitcher coming here via free agency. With the money tied up in Keuchel and Kimbrel and core players hitting their arbitration years, those type of deals simply aren't happening and it's frustrating when fans don't understand this. Jerry has spent the money.
                  After Stone chides the fanbase for lack of faith in team leadership, I'm waiting for a Merkin mailbag article or Stone radio interview sometime during the winter meetings which instructs Sox fans to "stop dreaming" about top-tier free agents and to "think Eaton-type deals" / "prove-it FA signings".

                  I'll gladly admit to be wrong about this if they do make a big splash for a top-tier RF, 2B, or SP, but color me highly skeptical.

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                  • Originally posted by voodoochile View Post

                    Sheets and Vaughn do not need to spend time in the minors. They just need consistent PT. The way to do that is to give Vaughn RF.
                    The Sox were one of the worst defensive teams last season. Putting Vaughn exclusively in RF is not going to help that situation. Engel is by far our best RFer so he would be taking playing time away from Vaughn.

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                    • Mark Gonzales says the Sox need to aim big this off-season:

                      https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/2...nsdW8a2ONWOAMw

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                      • Dan Szymobrski of FanGraphs recently did a season recap for all the AL Central teams, and brought up an idea that none of us have really considered but after thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense: start Vaughn in AAA next year. My first reaction was that this would never happen, and Hahn in the past has said about top prospects that he wants them to stay up when they get called up, but now I think it makes a lot of sense both for the Sox in the short term and for Vaughn's long term development.

                        For the Sox, it eases up the roster crunch of right-handed, defensively limited corner guys, and opens up a roster spot to bring in a more well-rounded outfielder, preferably one who is a decent fielder and hits left-handed.

                        For Vaughn, who never got the opportunity to have a normal minor league development path, it lets him take a step back and make the adjustments he needs to make without the major league spotlight. I think we all look at his swing and his demeanor and think he's a mature kid who will eventually figure it out, but he might just need to take a step back in order to do so.

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                        • Originally posted by ChiTownTrojan View Post
                          Dan Szymobrski of FanGraphs recently did a season recap for all the AL Central teams, and brought up an idea that none of us have really considered but after thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense: start Vaughn in AAA next year. My first reaction was that this would never happen, and Hahn in the past has said about top prospects that he wants them to stay up when they get called up, but now I think it makes a lot of sense both for the Sox in the short term and for Vaughn's long term development.

                          For the Sox, it eases up the roster crunch of right-handed, defensively limited corner guys, and opens up a roster spot to bring in a more well-rounded outfielder, preferably one who is a decent fielder and hits left-handed.

                          For Vaughn, who never got the opportunity to have a normal minor league development path, it lets him take a step back and make the adjustments he needs to make without the major league spotlight. I think we all look at his swing and his demeanor and think he's a mature kid who will eventually figure it out, but he might just need to take a step back in order to do so.
                          I read this and thought he was a bit off the mark about Vaughn as I think a lot of his second-half struggles could be attributed to a combination of fatigue and that back injury he suffered in August. Having said that, I'm not sure what the best use of his talent would be for the Sox in 2022. He did a fine job in an emergency playing left field and just about anywhere else, but I don't want him to be penciled in as a starting outfielder next year and I think even with a rotating DH/1B situation it would be hard to get him consistent at-bats. Maybe he's a guy you'd trade away for the right price?

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                          • Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post
                            Mark Gonzales says the Sox need to aim big this off-season:

                            https://www.dailyherald.com/sports/2...nsdW8a2ONWOAMw
                            He's not wrong about the need for them to aim big. This is their offseason to do it and there are a number of good FA options available. We'll have to wait and see over the winter if they actually do this or if they subject us to more half-assed Eaton/Mazara type deals. Cesar Hernandez isn't going big either unless they go really big for RF.

                            .....and I don't agree with Gonzalez that moving Vaughn over to 2B is "aiming big". We're trying to shore up defense and get Vaughn settled in as a quality MLB player. Please, just say no to any Vaughn at 2nd ideas other than as an emergency backup.
                            White Sox Division Titles: 1983, 1993, 2000, 2005, 2008, 2021

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                            • Originally posted by whitesox5187 View Post

                              I read this and thought he was a bit off the mark about Vaughn as I think a lot of his second-half struggles could be attributed to a combination of fatigue and that back injury he suffered in August. Having said that, I'm not sure what the best use of his talent would be for the Sox in 2022. He did a fine job in an emergency playing left field and just about anywhere else, but I don't want him to be penciled in as a starting outfielder next year and I think even with a rotating DH/1B situation it would be hard to get him consistent at-bats. Maybe he's a guy you'd trade away for the right price?
                              Could have been fatigue/injury, but it also could have been the league adjusting to him and him not having the experience to know how to adjust back. I agree that his performance this past year, especially defensively, was admirable considering he had never played above A ball and had never played the OF before. But just because he played a good OF for a rookie first baseman doesn't mean that he played a good OF. Same goes offensively - he had a decent year for someone who had never played above low A before, but is that really the bar we want to set for that roster spot? If the Sox went out and got a real DH option, especially someone with outfield flexibility, they might still be playing now. Michael Brantley and Nelson Cruz were right there for the taking, but the Sox settled on an unproven rookie.

                              I still really like Vaughn as a player and think he will be the long-term 1B for the Sox, so I'd rather they didn't trade him unless he brings value back in the trade that a top prospect would bring back. But I don't think he'll be viewed that way around the league. So a very sensible course of action would be to let him develop fully for a season in Charlotte, and have him come back in 2023. If he ends up mashing in Charlotte and forces his way on to the major league roster, that's a good problem to have.

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                              • Originally posted by whitesox5187 View Post

                                I read this and thought he was a bit off the mark about Vaughn as I think a lot of his second-half struggles could be attributed to a combination of fatigue and that back injury he suffered in August. Having said that, I'm not sure what the best use of his talent would be for the Sox in 2022. He did a fine job in an emergency playing left field and just about anywhere else, but I don't want him to be penciled in as a starting outfielder next year and I think even with a rotating DH/1B situation it would be hard to get him consistent at-bats. Maybe he's a guy you'd trade away for the right price?
                                Also, here are Vaughn's numbers by pitch type:

                                Fastballs: .284 batting average, .361 wOBA, .391 xwOBA
                                Breaking balls: .163 average, .218 wOBA, .251 xwOBA
                                Offspeed: .214 average, .306 wOBA, .277 xwOBA

                                He pounded fastballs, but it sure looks like he had some troubles with breaking stuff. This is not at all surprising for a rookie who never saw major league quality breaking stuff before this season.

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