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*OFFICIAL* 7/20/21 Tony’s Boys Don’t Quit, Either SOX 9 MIN 5 Postgamer

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  • #16
    Originally posted by thomas35forever View Post

    I don't disagree that the bullpen needs help. I also don't disagree that it's coughed up its fair share of games. However, as the old Grinder Rule states, only one statistic matters: W. And right now, they have quite a few of them and are in very good shape. Having mostly been starved of winning baseball for over a decade, I am going to enjoy every win that comes in exciting fashion. If you're going to treat a comeback win as a loss, that's on you, not me or anyone else.
    Just the fact the you agree the bullpen needs help is all the satisfaction I need.

    I fully accept any and all responsibility for how I treat a game, that's on me, not you nor anybody else.

    As Rhett Butler said in Gone With the Wind, "Frankly my dear I don't give a damn."

    Happy they won but they badly need to clean up this problem before it bites them on the ass at the least opportune time.

    I'd prefer not to go through say having the bullpen urinate away two games say to Boston and get beat in October myself. Let's solve the black hole and not even go there or at least drastically reduce the chance of it happening shall we?

    Can we also agree on that?

    Thomas I've seen more bad baseball in 60 seasons for the most part then you've been alive so I know all about trying to enjoy the good seasons when they come especially since the start of 2007.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
      Big blasts are helpful to overcome bad bullpens. Thankfully Minnesota’s bullpen was worse tonight.

      Cleveland loses; the Sox now lead the division by 9.5 games.
      The Twins relievers the Sox beat were actually the very good part of their bullpen. And Jose Abreu didn't homer until the Sox grabbed the lead on two clutch singles. Indeed, Abreu's home run was the punctuation mark on the game, but it was two one-out walks, an Andrew Vaughn pinch-hit single leading to a terrific Adam Engel slide and a Billy Hamilton two-out single that gave the Sox the lead.

      I don't know that Ryan Burr is joining the bad part of the Sox bullpen. I would like to believe he just had a bad night. Michael Kopech seemed to have an off-night. After allowing a Donaldson home run, he struck out the side in an inning where he didn't have control, came back looking like he had his stuff but walked two with two out and nearly lost the lead on a Nelson Cruz line drive snagged impressively by Brian Goodwin. Burr gave up a single, a home run, a single and a stolen base, seeming on the verge of the letting the game as well as the lead get away from the Sox.

      The Sox got ahead early on Abreu's double and Goodwin's single and extended a one-run lead on Yoan Moncada's two-out homer picking up Goodwin who failed to score Abreu after his one-out triple. This game could have been lost when Zack Collins popped out with one out and the bases loaded and Seby Zavala failed to pick him up. When Collins was able to walk in the eighth to put the tying run on second, the situation was different. It doesn't matter if you lose the DH. The ninth spot in the order probably doesn't come up again, win or lose, to bring up Danny Mendick as a pinch-hitter for the pitcher who probably is through for the day anyway.

      Vaughn's at bat was pivotal in making this game epic. Against a tough right-hander. he simply went up and got the first hit of the inning to right center, and Engel grabbed the corner of the plate for the tying run. When the Twins brought in their right-handed closer Hansel Robles to strike out Tim Anderson, the Twins much have thought they still had a chance, but Hamilton, who had run for Monday night's hero, punched it past Josh Donaldson for the lead. Abreu did what the Twins didn't do in the top of the inning after taking the lead.

      Fun fact: Abreu has more RBIs on this home stand than he had in the month of June.

      Fun fact II: Ditto for Abreu and home runs.

      This was simply a fun baseball game, unless you're a Twins fan, I guess. And even non-contending teams play flurries of fun baseball, sometimes because they have nothing to lose. But this came against the Twins in a season where it's the Sox who should be playing tight, with forgotten players and some young players in some big roles. There is a spirit on this team. You see it in the rookies. You see it in the replacement outfielders, Hamilton, Goodwin and even Engel taking advantage of their chances.

      Now when I look back at the Sox in April, that team sort of feels like the Beatles in Hamburg.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

        The comeback win IS less important because THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE SURRENDERED the lead in the first place.
        No. Snatching victory from the grasp of heartbreak is what makes memories for fans and brings ballclubs together. Big win.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TDog View Post

          The Twins relievers the Sox beat were actually the very good part of their bullpen. And Jose Abreu didn't homer until the Sox grabbed the lead on two clutch singles. Indeed, Abreu's home run was the punctuation mark on the game, but it was two one-out walks, an Andrew Vaughn pinch-hit single leading to a terrific Adam Engel slide and a Billy Hamilton two-out single that gave the Sox the lead.

          I don't know that Ryan Burr is joining the bad part of the Sox bullpen. I would like to believe he just had a bad night. Michael Kopech seemed to have an off-night. After allowing a Donaldson home run, he struck out the side in an inning where he didn't have control, came back looking like he had his stuff but walked two with two out and nearly lost the lead on a Nelson Cruz line drive snagged impressively by Brian Goodwin. Burr gave up a single, a home run, a single and a stolen base, seeming on the verge of the letting the game as well as the lead get away from the Sox.

          The Sox got ahead early on Abreu's double and Goodwin's single and extended a one-run lead on Yoan Moncada's two-out homer picking up Goodwin who failed to score Abreu after his one-out triple. This game could have been lost when Zack Collins popped out with one out and the bases loaded and Seby Zavala failed to pick him up. When Collins was able to walk in the eighth to put the tying run on second, the situation was different. It doesn't matter if you lose the DH. The ninth spot in the order probably doesn't come up again, win or lose, to bring up Danny Mendick as a pinch-hitter for the pitcher who probably is through for the day anyway.

          Vaughn's at bat was pivotal in making this game epic. Against a tough right-hander. he simply went up and got the first hit of the inning to right center, and Engel grabbed the corner of the plate for the tying run. When the Twins brought in their right-handed closer Hansel Robles to strike out Tim Anderson, the Twins much have thought they still had a chance, but Hamilton, who had run for Monday night's hero, punched it past Josh Donaldson for the lead. Abreu did what the Twins didn't do in the top of the inning after taking the lead.

          Fun fact: Abreu has more RBIs on this home stand than he had in the month of June.

          Fun fact II: Ditto for Abreu and home runs.

          This was simply a fun baseball game, unless you're a Twins fan, I guess. And even non-contending teams play flurries of fun baseball, sometimes because they have nothing to lose. But this came against the Twins in a season where it's the Sox who should be playing tight, with forgotten players and some young players in some big roles. There is a spirit on this team. You see it in the rookies. You see it in the replacement outfielders, Hamilton, Goodwin and even Engel taking advantage of their chances.

          Now when I look back at the Sox in April, that team sort of feels like the Beatles in Hamburg.
          I like the analogy! Considering everything...the injuries, the bad bullpen, some guys being counted on going through slumps it is simply incredible what they have done so far (So far being the operative word.)

          It's like the baseball gods after screwing them over with injury after injury decided to take pity and let guys who really have no business even being in the Major Leagues have those one in a quarter century seasons.

          I was thinking today of trying to compare this club to another and the only one I could come up with was the 1990 team; they weren't picked higher than sixth yet somehow with mostly kids, won 94 games.

          In this case the team was expected to win but the injuries certainly made that no longer a guarantee.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by KenBerryGrab View Post

            No. Snatching victory from the grasp of heartbreak is what makes memories for fans and brings ballclubs together. Big win.
            It's hard to have a "heartbreak" with a big lead in the division though isn't it? Memories by the way are made in late September or October...not in July.

            Let's not make this out to be bigger than it was, as someone else posted they were only down a run (to a garbage team). I mean its not like they pulled off a Cubs tonight right?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

              It's hard to have a "heartbreak" with a big lead in the division though isn't it? Memories by the way are made in late September or October...not in July.
              *ahem*

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

                It's hard to have a "heartbreak" with a big lead in the division though isn't it? Memories by the way are made in late September or October...not in July.

                Let's not make this out to be bigger than it was, as someone else posted they were only down a run (to a garbage team). I mean its not like they pulled off a Cubs tonight right?
                Did you really just denigrate the Sox win tonight and compare it unfavorably to the Cubs win? I realize you need to continue hammering the bullpen stuff, but really?!?!?!?
                Riding Shotgun on the Sox Bandwagon since before there was an Internet...



                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

                  It's hard to have a "heartbreak" with a big lead in the division though isn't it? Memories by the way are made in late September or October...not in July.

                  Let's not make this out to be bigger than it was, as someone else posted they were only down a run (to a garbage team). I mean its not like they pulled off a Cubs tonight right?
                  Then what's the point? Is the White Sox winning the last four games played in the majors in 2005 the only thing you remember of that season? Is Tito Landrum at the center of your only 1983 memory? I enjoyed the Giants' run in the last decade after I moved to Northern California and found them easy to root for, first because they had Aaron Rowand in center and Juan Uribe at short for their first San Francisco World Series championship. I talk to people who have great memories of those seasons that didn't come from October. I talk to people who get misty over Willie Mays memories that have nothing to do with catching a fly ball in the Polo Grounds. One, poignantly, was on older man who had recently been diagnosed with cancer. Years ago I had a girlfriend whose father lived in San Diego, where they have a freeway named for Ted Williams, after growing up in Boston a huge Ted Williams fan. He liked me, in part, because I was interested in his great Ted Williams memories that didn't involved the 1946 World Series. Are you suggesting no White Sox fan has a right to real, happy memories of 1977?

                  I'm sure that if the Sox had lost, there would have been posts making the loss bigger than it was, complaining that it was the kind of games losers lose and to a garbage team (second in the AL in home runs, but garbage teams only hit home runs against garbage pitchers, I guess). I don't know that you would have had any objection stringing "heatbreaking" and "loss" next to each other and finding reason for concern.

                  What fans should want to see is exactly what they saw tonight -- not Tim Anderson going hitless or Kopech and Burr struggling out of the bullpen or the Sax failing to score after loading the bases with one out, but the total effort, the tenacity that tonight led to a big win, because, damn it, we're out here to win as many games as we can and don't want leave anything on the table if we can help it. Giving up the lead doesn't cheapen the win, doesn't tell me there's a problem and we need to find relievers who won't give up the lead (of course Chapman, an expensive Cubs acquisition in 2016 gave up late leads in the NLDS clincher and Game 7 of the World Sereis). A tough night offensively doesn't mean the team can't compete offensively in October (the highly sought after rental Machado hit .182 for the Dodgers when they lost the 1918 World Series to the Red Sox). What mattered tonight was that after the Sox gave up the lead, they did something about it, from the bottom of their lineup against some pretty good relief pitchers.

                  I think this was an important win because it displayed a character from the White Sox that I've wanted to see. It's important that the Sox didn't collectively shrug after losing the lead because, Cleveland was losing big (or had already lost) and there would be no lost ground. It's great to win games when the other team puts up a fight and thinks they have you beat, regardless of where they are in the standings.

                  And if I couldn't enjoy tonight's game as a White Sox fan, I couldn't imagine why I'm wasting my time with baseball.



                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Lip's right, though: this bullpen right now cannot be entrusted to protect a 1-run lead against terrible teams like Baltimore or Minnesota. In the playoffs where runs are scarce, the bullpen will need to potentially protect 1-run leads against much better lineups, against teams whose bullpens are not going to surrender 5 runs in the 8th inning. The Sox need bullpen help.

                    That doesn't make last night's win any less thrilling to me, but neither does last night's win make it untrue.

                    Fangraphs now has the Sox playoff odds at 99.2% (division at 98.9%), wouldn't it be nice to go deep into the playoffs? They need a dominant setup man or two to do that.
                    Last edited by HomeFish; 07-21-2021, 05:18 AM.
                    "Hope...may be indulged in by those who have abundant resources...but those who stake their all upon the venture see it in its true colors only after they are ruined."
                    -- Thucydides

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                    • #25
                      I think part of the problem with the bullpen last night was that Keuchel only completed five innings. That meant the bullpen had to cover four innings. Kopech was good for two (even with the solo homer surrendered when he threw a “get me over” fastball while stroll struggling with command), but that still left the eighth.

                      Moving forward, one idea - that I don’t expect TLR to implement - would be to make Kopech an opener who pitches two innings, and then go to Keuchel to start the third. Here are some advantages:

                      1. Kopech gets ample warmup time as the “starter,” so that he can find his command;

                      2. The modal outcome (two clean innings from Kopech) means Keuchel - who himself has also had plenty of time to warm up - starts the third inning facing the opposing 7-8-9 hitters. He’s usually good to face a lineup twice, but this makes it more likely that he can pitch six innings instead of five.

                      3. Kopech’s 2 plus Keuchel’s 6 covers 8 total innings, meaning the ninth can be handed to Hendriks (or Ruiz if it’s a blowout).

                      4. Since Kopech knows he’s throwing two innings every fifth day, he’s also available in relief for 1-2 innings for one of the other starters (probably Cease) as needed.

                      This doesn’t obviate the need for additional relief help, but I do think it could help cover for the present lack of bullpen depth.

                      If the idea does work, it also could be used to have Crochet (who seems to do better with the bases clear than coming into the 10th with a runner on second) open for Cease.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by thomas35forever View Post

                        Seriously, does nothing make you happy? Is the comeback win actually less important to you than temporarily surrendering the lead? I feel like this could have been Game 7 of the World Series, and you'd still find a way to be critical of this team.
                        Originally posted by voodoochile View Post

                        Way to suck the oxygen out of the room...

                        Sox win another thrilling comeback victory, Abrreu and Moncada are heating up big time just as the team gets ready to get healthy. Kopech appears to be turning into exactly the guy we need him to be - a multi-inning eating strikeout machine, so of course the Sox doomed...



                        Well I'm happy even if others are failing to see and feel the joy.


                        2nd night in a row after an exciting comeback win! I guess if we're not like the '27 Yankees and winning every game by 10 runs, then there's no joy in Soxville.


                        Last edited by GoSoxMMV; 07-21-2021, 07:35 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post
                          5th time this year Sox trailed in the 7th inning or later and won.

                          Any questions folks? Anyone thinks this bullpen can be depended on come October?

                          Anybody? Step right up friends and neighbors.


                          This is a BAD bullpen, period and it could cost them dearly when it really matters.

                          I suspect that the showing since the Sunday Baltimore game that Mr. Hahn is convinced he needs to pull some triggers and get some guys who can actually get people out because right now they only have two or three guys who can do that.
                          No questions, and yes, I think the bullpen can be depended on come October. You want to continue to use single games when the bullpen does a bad job to support your argument, yet the games when the bullpen is lights out don't matter.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Frater Perdurabo View Post
                            Lip, I agree we need better relief pitching.

                            However, it’s also fair to say that Minnesota has Burr’s number. He hasn’t surrendered any other runs this season; all four of his earned runs have been scored by the Twins. He’s only allowed two total hits to teams besides the Twins. It’s just a fluke. I’m not saying he’s a legit 8th inning guy, but I’m also not ruling him out against other teams.
                            Agreed. It's not like Kopech and Burr have been terrible and would be replaced on the roster even if the Sox added to the pen. And it's not like Burr's outing yesterday was the worst meltdown ever - he did get out of the inning after the quick single and HR. Not ideal to give up the lead, but not exactly a textbook case of utter bullpen failure.

                            Yes, I want the Sox to get some bullpen help, but I must have missed the Rick Hahn presser where he said they were definitely standing pat through the trade deadline. Today is July 21 , not July 31 and the Sox have a 9.5 game lead. No reason for RH to panic and empty the farm now by giving up as much as possible for a middle reliever because fans are screaming WHEN WILL THE SOX DO SOMETHING!!!!!! after every Sox victory.
                            Last edited by GoSoxMMV; 07-21-2021, 07:40 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lipman 1 View Post

                              I like the analogy! Considering everything...the injuries, the bad bullpen, some guys being counted on going through slumps it is simply incredible what they have done so far (So far being the operative word.)

                              It's like the baseball gods after screwing them over with injury after injury decided to take pity and let guys who really have no business even being in the Major Leagues have those one in a quarter century seasons.

                              I was thinking today of trying to compare this club to another and the only one I could come up with was the 1990 team; they weren't picked higher than sixth yet somehow with mostly kids, won 94 games.

                              In this case the team was expected to win but the injuries certainly made that no longer a guarantee.
                              Which players on the team right now have "no business even being in the Major Leagues"?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HomeFish View Post
                                Lip's right, though: this bullpen right now cannot be entrusted to protect a 1-run lead against terrible teams like Baltimore or Minnesota. In the playoffs where runs are scarce, the bullpen will need to potentially protect 1-run leads against much better lineups, against teams whose bullpens are not going to surrender 5 runs in the 8th inning. The Sox need bullpen help.

                                That doesn't make last night's win any less thrilling to me, but neither does last night's win make it untrue.

                                Fangraphs now has the Sox playoff odds at 99.2% (division at 98.9%), wouldn't it be nice to go deep into the playoffs? They need a dominant setup man or two to do that.
                                But they can hold a lead against a good team like the Astros, which they did 2 days ago.

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